It Happened

I finally met a not so neat-o “gun” person. There is a young kid in our EMT class that seems like a nice enough guy. He might exaggerate a lot and likes attention, but he is nice and polite, but his gun attitudes cause us to butt heads a bit.

A few Saturdays ago I was having a conversation with another student. He is probably my age, shoots competitively and lives on land he can shoot on. We were talking about an annoying squirrel issue he has. Then he started to tell me about a gun video on You Tube he thought I might enjoy. At this point the young kid starts laughing and asks me if I have seen the video of the guy who ┬áhands his “stupid” girlfriend a “big ass” gun and watches it hit her in the head and cracks her nose open. I tell him yes and I didn’t think it was funny. He tells me she was stupid and should have listened when the boyfriend said tighter grip. Now, I don’t know that I have seen the exact video he was referring to, but my point is the same.

I told him the “stupider”, the less skilled, the more naive, the weaker, the more delicate and/or unfocused, the MORE support they need, not less. If I think someone can’t handle or will have difficulty handling a particular firearm, my approach is to find a safer way for them to do so and if that isn’t possible, we don’t shoot(that has never happened) I also informed him that using a firearm to teach someone a lesson about listening is not a good idea. I said everything matter a fact, but nice.

We also have a set of twins in our class. They are 19 and desperate to shoot. After that last Saturday class they went home with my card and talked to their parents. Their dad is FBI, but has never talked guns with them, at all. Not even basic safety. Anyway, 2 days ago the mom calls me from a local gun shop where she wants to buy a revolver. I try to discourage her for 2 reasons: one the gun shop owner told her women need revolvers because they aren’t cops and if they try to run a semi auto they will just look foolish and like they are trying to be cool. I don’t even know what that means, but it annoyed me and I didn’t want her to spend her money there. More importantly she has never shot any gun of any kind. I told her I really wanted her to shoot first and I would take her and the girls to the range to shoot whatever they wanted. She was frustrated as she wanted a gun that second, but I kept saying you really should shoot a few guns before you buy one.

So, last night at class the twins tell me their mom bought a small semi auto from a different gun shop, but they couldn’t remember which one. In the course of our discussion the young man chimes in.

I agree with the gun shop owner. Women don’t need a semi auto and plus a revolver is better for intimidating people. I ignored┬áhim, looked at the girls and said, “Don’t ever do that.” “Don’t ever use your gun to intimidate someone.” “It’s dangerous, stupid and illegal.”

Then one of the girls asked me how many bullets I think is enough. As I am chit chatting the young man said only 5. You only need 5 as pistols are precision weapons. I said, no, they are not. He goes on to tell me yes because with a pistol one has to know what they are shooting at not like a rifle where you can spray and pray.

Again, I look to the young lady and say, I don’t want you doing that either. I want you to know exactly what you are shooting at and then I want you to hit it. Spraying bullets all over without knowing where they are going is dangerous, stupid and could cause you some legal issues down the road.

As an aside, the first thing I told the mom was to sign up for training. I wanted her to do it before she bought a gun, but she was determined to buy a gun that day. However, they all are signed up for an 8 hour conceal carry class. Not with us at FPF. She is paying for herself and her 3 girls, so our classes were out of her budget. Anyway our chats in class are very generic. I am mostly trying to steer them away from rush decisions and telling them to keep an open mind. They are getting lots of advice like from her boyfriend’s mom, who carries daily. She insists they buy a gun with a safety which is why she recommends they don’t buy revolvers. I don’t know.

The girls have good instincts though. They both carry knives everywhere and seem very aware of things such as situational awareness. One girl really wants the Glock 19 and the other twin wants the Ruger LCR. I just keep endlessly saying…both really good guns, but I would really like to take you shooting first. Just for fun. I will bring guns, ammo and pay the range fee. Lets just shoot a little before you buy or wait til after training. They say ok, but smile like that isn’t happening. I mean they really want to shoot with me, but they don’t want to wait to buy their guns. You all know how I bought my gun, so I can’t blame them, but still want them to learn from my mistakes as opposed to perpetuating them:)

As we are talking at the end of class the young man says that a great way to conceal is not to use a holster and off he goes. I look at the girls and said, “Please, do not listen to ANYTHING he says about guns.” With terrified looks they promise.

So, good news is the girls are getting training and preparing themselves before they go away to college next year. Bad news, this goofball guy is walking around my town with very poor gun knowledge and habits.

 

44 thoughts on “It Happened

  1. Sadly, idiots in the gun community do exist…..in numbers that do us a great deal of harm. Idiot gun store owners run off more business than they know with demeaning, know it all attitudes. I’m glad that you are there for the girls and their Mom. The young kid is just that….young. He’s also ignorant and full of himself. Dangerous combination. Please keep us posted on the girls and their Mom and how they take to training and shooting. Thank you.

  2. Good for you, the high road is hard to take, but in the end the better route. This guy sounds like a real idiot, not only with firearms, but as an EMT, what a goof. I’ve been an EMT 34 years, have seen lots of his kind come and go, he might make it through class, but won’t be worth a bag of cement on a real scene, a boat anchor who’ll screw things up so that someone who knows what they are doing will have to go back and fix his mistakes, then take credit for his dumb ass. I used to feel less than good about cutting idiots like him to shreds, not any more, crotchety old man I guess I am, but my treatment of patients has never been called into question.

    Bottom line, Good for you, you did the right thing.

    Bob

  3. I use this story of mine for women that I run into that want to purchase: I was going to purchase an airweight, $350 at the time. I rented one, could not hit anything, had a blister from trying to hold onto the thing for control. I’m glad I rented one because it would have been $350 and my time lost.
    Are the twins pretty? I’ve run into the young man before, not him, but the same attitude. They really hate it when females as “old” as we are know more about guns than they do. :) Keep up on the high road!

  4. Well sadly there are a lot of knowitall, no nothings running around, and worse yet some people listen to them.
    Number one gun I recommend is the M&P 9mm, and I have yet to find a woman who could not run one.

    I’m not sure whether he is ignorant or just stupid, ignorant can be fixed with proper knowledge, but stupid is as stupid does, but if he has his head planted too deeply, he will never get it..
    I recently had a student, who at the end of the class (CCW) told me he wanted to respect my presentation, but I had it wrong, and the proper way to learn to shoot was at small targets (clay birds) from 75 yards! His logic was if you can hit at 75 yards you could hit at 7 feet, for 2 hours the discussion rolled on I tried to explain that the dynamics of an assault were far different than a target at long distance, and how at one time LE’s were trained at 25 yards, but were losing gunfights on the street, finally I said if you think your training will allow you to prevail, then pursue it.

    Sounds like you are on the right track, keep going!

  5. Ambrose Bierce once defined the term “Positive” as meaning “mistaken at the top of one’s voice.” Whenever I encounter add water and stir gun sages I try to nicely inform them there is more than one perspective where their pontification is concerned, but I’ve seen few of these knuckleheads stop warbling foolish opinions they are positive about.

    Fortunately I work and teach out of a gun store that has a laser simulator set up. Whenever contending with a “the little lady needs a two inch snubby” situation, I take the lady in question back to the simulator, hand her a snub nose, and have her shoot a simulated B-27 target. Then I hand her an auto and have her do the same. The results speak for themselves and more often than not she purchases a Glock or M&P. Funny thing is I’ll have the knuckleheads do the same thing and then listen to them try to explain why they keep them tighter with a semi-auto than a wheel gun. Never ceases to amaze me how hard some folks work to hang on to their ignorance.

  6. I hope this kid does not actually own a gun. You might want to ask him next time he butts in, where exactly did he get his training.

    • His mother trained him he said. Nothing formal. They live on land. He also said he would never hit or shoot a woman even if she was pointing a gun at him. He was taught to always respect women. I agree, but I am not sure I would give up my life to be so virtuous.

  7. If he does Mexican carry his snubby revolver perhaps he will win himself a nice new shiny Darwin award before too long. I read a tale recently of a guy who did just that, while simultaneously proving that you need not expire to claim your Darwin…

  8. It’s a shame that youth is wasted on the young!

    I pray that I don’t ever need emergency services from that guy. Well, actually I pray that I don’t ever need emergency services, but you get the point.

    Sounds like you stayed calm though. Good for you.

  9. Idiots abound! Sadly.
    Your response and attitude was excellent, however. Hopefully these women will continue to listen to you and distance him.
    In my youth, I ran across a few of his type – enough to keep great distance. I can make enough mistakes on my own, thank you very much!
    Now that I’m older (and hopefully wiser) I give these guys a wide berth.
    Let them hoist each other on their own respective petards!
    Thanks for mentioning this species; may they one day become extinct! :-)
    gfa

  10. And this is why I find myself following more women in the online “tactical community” than men. Not for something pretty to look at (although they are *wink**wink*), but because I get really good information. There are a bunch of good guys out there too, but most of the time surfing YouTube, you get to sit through someone’s issues with inadequacy as they preach about 9mm being for wusses.

    • Yep. IV heard the stories, but never got to experience it before. I have been taught by mostly men and none of them have acted like this. Lots of good folks out there…just have to avoid the goofs!

  11. Actually, that was wonderful. The cretin opened his pie hole and helped you teach some extremely important lessons to a couple of newbies. You should hire him as a prop for your classes – “Don’t be That Guy, and for God’s sake, don’t listen to him!”

  12. Back when I was shooting daily, I countered posers like that young man with a $500 challenge. The premise was simple: Bring whatever firearm you want to whatever range you want and we’ll shoot whatever course of fire you want. If you outshoot me, I’ll give you $500. When I outshoot you, you give me $500.

    Oddly enough, I never had a taker on that. Or, maybe not so odd because those gun folks who have little more than ego and a few random internet ramblings to form the core base of their “knowledge & experience” suddenly find religion when put on the spot and challenged to put up or shut up.

    My wife carries an Airweight and practices with a 2 1/2″ Model 19. She is not comfortable with a semi. Just isn’t. She’s been married to me–and shooting–for over 20 years, so it’s not an “unknown” thing. It’s an ability thing.

    She has fibromyalgia, severe, and cannot trust her muscle function to always be able to clear a jam or misfeed should such an event occur. Additionally, she also knows her state of mind and accepts the fact that a jam/misfeed could cause her to panic, which would further her physical difficulties in clearing the weapon.

    I teach beginning shooters with a revolver. Always have, always will. But then again, I’m older and I’m definitely military and LE old school when it comes to instruction and technique.

    But when it comes to the firearm a woman (or anyone else, for that matter) wishes to carry, so long as they are choosing whichever form of weaponry for valid, well-thought out reasons, I’m fine with. Making a purchase and carry decision based solely, or even primarily on “Well, so-and-so recommended it” with little or no additional thought behind it bugs me beyond description.

    Experience is the best teacher, but all too often, gaining that experience comes at a terrible price. Therefore, in lieu of experience, KNOWLEDGE is the best factor for making sound decisions.

    Your teaching and guiding and patience with the twins is giving them the knowledge they need. Kudos and awesome job.

    JD

    • Brilliant!

      I have no problems with Revolvers. I actually do not have a problem with most guns. Lots of people I k ow and respect carry revolvers, some carry Glocks, many 1911′s…all fine. My main issue was that the shop owner made a blanket statement about women and firearms. That bugs me and I really wanted the women to know what a revolver feels like to shoot and a semi auto and a small gun, full size…they have no reference. They are making choices based on other people(even me) instead of their own experience. Of course unless they agree to shoot they will have to rely on others opinions and so far, I don’t like who is talking to them:)

  13. This is why you are so valuable to our growing community! You encourage the young to find what works for them and not some gomer’s idea of what they must use. This has been a problem with the old school types, especially when introducing women to the shooting community and is something I have fought for a long time. Kudos to you and keep up the good work.

  14. You have a lot more patience than I have. While you did the right thing with that kid, I am sure I would have been nowheres near as kind or polite. That lady whose husband was FBI….makes me wonder about the caliber of people we have in that organization. I have known a few over the years and it strikes me that having a husband in that outfit and did not consider teaching his wife and kids how to shoot is well….troubling. Those that I knew were nothing like that. Funny thing….I have seen women doing a man’s work in a lot of areas. From laying cement block while I was in the SeaBees to herding cattle on a cattle drive to working in a warehouse. This “thing” about a woman not being able to do a man’s work…Baloney! I have to say I have seen some damm tough women. In some instaces women can be/are tougher than men.

  15. Just a couple weekends ago I was at a gun shop where I was told that semi-auto handguns are “too complicated for a woman to operate” and that I should get a little .38 special revolver instead. I was mad. Really mad. But I stayed calm and polite while browsing their handgun selection, and just casually mentioned my former collegiate club shooting ranking from a couple years ago, and left it at that. The guy who had told me guns were too complicated for women got real quiet and embarrassed, and my husband was beaming when we walked out of there.

    I really dislike being told I’m not intelligent enough to run a semi-auto. It rankles me.

  16. I am not a fire arms instructor and at this point in life probably will never be one. However, if this young man is going to “hang” around you and your students he needs to learn some etiquette and NEVER interrupt you when your talking to other or prospective students. You are giving those young ladies and their mother some very sound advice. Keep up the good work. And I have NEVER met a woman that couldn’t handle a semi as well as a wheel gun.

  17. The problem, as I read your post, is that he’s one of the idiots who propogates misinformation as fact. I hope that the girls in your class are smart enough to see that and will listen to what you have to say.

    Go get ‘em Tiger!

  18. I have known way too many guys like that. I used to work for an armored car company, and for some reason the job attracted “that kind”
    Luckly the other guards and myself fixed the problem through ridicule, peer pressure, embarsment, shame, and just good old pointing a finger and laughing. It did help a few young men learn… but alas some people you just cant help.

    As for the ladies, let them buy and learn. They will eventually come to you after they get over the “buy it now” impulse. I had that problem when I first started, and my wife had gone through many guns to find the ones she loves. I think “Kathy J” is the only person I know who still carries her first gun.

  19. I kinda actually hope that kid shoots himself in the junk like that.

    Bad as it sounds. Mostly because he’s asking for it.

  20. Idiots like that kid, and any gun store owner/counterguy who espouses only revolvers (usually airweight snubnoses) or even just tiny semi-autos for women really irritate me. They don’t know what they’re talking about, and they don’t realize how ignorant/misogynistic they are.

    Most of the time I carry a DA/SA semi-auto. Or a snub-nose revolver. Depends on what works best with what I’m wearing. Neither starts with a “4″. For me, FOR ME, I have determined that these are what work best most of the time. Also, I don’t want extra steps to try to remember if the need to use my firearm ever presents itself, so neither has a safety. . Mine are simply “draw and pull the trigger” guns. That said, my semi is one of the larger .380s out there, and my snub-nose is a Ruger .357 LCR, loaded with .38 Special Speer gold dots. I have shot the itty-bitty .380s (Ruger LCP) and shot a .38 Special LCR with the hard rubber/plastic laser grip. Both were painful to shoot. I can only imagine that an airweight snubby with hard grips is going to hurt even more than that laser gripped LCR.

    My point being that everyone needs to find what works for them, and everyone who really wants to help someone find what works for them should keep all options open, but also be realistic about the laws of physics. Recoil is directly related to the mass of the gun absorbing the recoil and the velocity and weight of the bullet going the other direction. Defaulting to recommending the very guns most likely to drive someone away is counterproductive. And mean and stupid.

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